Posts by Cold Steel

45

Why did Jesus tell the convict on the cross next to his, that he would be joining him in Heaven TODAY??

by Faithful Witness in

maybe a silly question, but i'm curious about this part of the story of christ's crucifixion, when the 1 thief challenges jesus to save himself and "us too" from their deaths, but the 2nd thief rebukes him and pleads with jesus... .

luke 23:42-43: and he said unto jesus, lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.. .

Cold Steel

Okay, Emeth, you're up!

33

Evolution is just a theory

by donny in

for those who have heard this comment, check out aron ra's great site.. http://www.aronra.com/.

Cold Steel

Very well said, LR.

On the other hand, if I had a dime (it used to be a nickel) for every news article or account that read, "Thus and so completely changes everything we thought we knew...," I'd be a very wealthy guy.

At BYU, the only textbook I saved was the one on astronomy. It was a topic I enjoyed reading and studying about. Several years ago, my wife and I were cleaning out things and I saw my old textbook. I took a break and pulled it out to read it. After about ten minutes of flipping through it and reading it, I held it over the big trash bin we were using and I dropped the book in it.

"Why are you doing that," my wife asked. "That's a nice book...don't you want to keep it?"

I explained that in the years since that book was written, just about everything had changed! That's not a condemnation of science. Just about any book along those lines change. That's how science works. My wife wanted to give the book to the Salvation Army, but I told her no. It was so much out of date, why take the chance that someone else will read it and believe it? So now I buy DVDs on astronomy that probably also will be out of date in fifteen years.

What we know about science is always changing. It wasn't too long ago that we didn't know about galaxies. We just looked up and saw stars. In the 1920s, Edwin Hubble used the 100-inch Mount Wilson telescope to definitively prove that the patchy blurs first thought to be distant stars were, in fact, galaxies that lay outside of the Milky Way. Now, many people believe that there are mutiple universes outside of our own, perhaps millions or billions of them. Perhaps this process of creation has been going on for far longer than previously thought. There may also be variant universes paralleling our own, and that also is a mind bender.

My point is that it's fine to believe scientific marvels, but always be willing to accept new ideas.

Oh, one more thing I just thought of. Years ago at BYU, a professor of ancient scripture, a highly intelligent individual, made a statement regarding geology to a newspaper reporter. Our geology department went nuts and one of our professors spoke out and essentially said, professors of ancient scriptures should not be speaking on geological findings, especially when they are in error. The first professor stuck to his comments and the geology department challenged the professor to a debate with the head of the department. This was well before the Internet, of course, and the debate started right on schedule. In about ten minutes, though, the ancient scripture professor had won the debate. He had read a Dutch article in a scientific journal that had uncovered something new and that was the source. The geology professor, embarrassed at being showed up, acknowledged the finding over the following week, but had added that all the textbooks had taught this subject the way he believed it to be. The first professor, when asked about this by the same reporter, stated that textbooks contain only the established part of science and are the last places one should check out when doing research. The sources one should turn to, he said, are scientific and trade journals in the areas being investigated, because that's where the new things will be found. In fact, it was this professor who told us that any textbook over ten years old should probably be trashed.

I think he was probably right.

45

Why did Jesus tell the convict on the cross next to his, that he would be joining him in Heaven TODAY??

by Faithful Witness in

maybe a silly question, but i'm curious about this part of the story of christ's crucifixion, when the 1 thief challenges jesus to save himself and "us too" from their deaths, but the 2nd thief rebukes him and pleads with jesus... .

luke 23:42-43: and he said unto jesus, lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.. .

Cold Steel

Young's Literal Translation

Geneva Bible (1599)

One has to look at the various translations and see how seasoned scholars and theologians translate the text. Literally, the text doesn't seem to make sense by removing the comma. How do we know, for example, that Jesus didn't say: "Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in Paradise?"

Or perhaps he said, "Verily I say to thee today, with me thou shalt be in the paradise." The word "paradise" is a Persian word meaning, "the king's park," which was a royal place of rest. It doesn't mean "heaven."

Given the fact that the scriptures clearly state that while Jesus' body was in the tomb, his spirit was in Paradise, or Hades (which includes Paradise, a place of rest, and Hell, a place of torment). Thus the "Apostles' Creed" states, "He descended into Hell." I concede that this creed is a work of men and not inspired by God; however, it reflects traditions and doctrines long in existence when it was penned. I refer, again, to the words of Origen, who was about as close to a first century Christian as one could hope for.

Given, too, that Jesus' phrase would have been completely redundant, even in Greek. For example, VERILY, or TRULY, both terms of affirmation, when added to, "I say unto you TODAY" (another term of affirmation), would be excessively repetitive! Thus, "Truly, I'm telling you today, shalt thou be with me in Paradise." Also, why didn't Jesus ever use that type of affirmation elsewhere? Many times he said, "Verily (or Truly) I say unto you..." but he never added the word "today" with the other term of affirmation. It also makes the end of the sentence lacking in meaning. Consider this. If it is affirmatory, let's remove "today" and render it thus:

Without punctuation, except the period, and without the affirmatory "Today," the sentence becomes a jumble. If we remove the "Truly I say unto you," the other statement of affirmation, and if we get rid of the period, another punctuation, we get this:

Given the complete lack of punctuation, we could very well reason that this is a question. If Jesus said to the malefactor, "Shalt thou be with me in Paradise," what would be the meaning? However, if we go back to the correct translation, with but one affirmation, we get:

Do you now see why virtually all translations of the Bible pretty much render it as the above? To do it any other way simply would not make sense. The Watchtowers I've read all say, essentially, "Let the Bible interpret itself," or, more recently, follow the guidance of the slave. But even the slave can't change things so fundamentally obvious.

20

Trinitiarian "proof-text" John 20:28 has some problems for "Trinitarians"

by booker-t in

all through my years as a jws and after i have always wondered about john 20:28 where thomas says "my lord and my god" to jesus.

i just could not find a suitable answer for this text to disprove the trinity doctrine.

i really never swallowed the jws intrepretation of "shock" by thomas something like "oh my god" but at the same time i had a gut feeling trinitarians were hiding something about this verse.

Cold Steel

Right on, Abe!

45

Why did Jesus tell the convict on the cross next to his, that he would be joining him in Heaven TODAY??

by Faithful Witness in

maybe a silly question, but i'm curious about this part of the story of christ's crucifixion, when the 1 thief challenges jesus to save himself and "us too" from their deaths, but the 2nd thief rebukes him and pleads with jesus... .

luke 23:42-43: and he said unto jesus, lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.. .

Cold Steel

Laika: I didn't know Mormons believed in purgatory, that's interesting.

It's not Purgatory. No one is "prayed" out. Again, as pointed out above, Origen described it thus: “After death, I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of teaching, a school of the spirits in which everything they saw on earth will be made clear to them. Those who were pure in heart will progress more rapidly, reaching the kingdom of heaven by definite steps or degrees.”

This was the view of the early Christians. Or do you think people instantly go to heaven or hell upon their deaths? It is my belief that a person can be neither saved nor damned in ignorance. That's why Peter said the gospel was preached to those who are dead; that they may be judged as if they were in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4)

Emeth: Cold Steel i dont care about modern day christian 'scholars'

That's up to you. It's one reason the Adventist position has been so thoroughly discredited. It's a fact that ancient Judaism and Christianity believed that men had spirits. And many even believed in premortality, which was branded a heresy in the fourth century. The Greeks had nothing to do with bringing that concept to Christianity because it was already there. It's all throughout extra-biblical Christian writings of the day. The so-called Apocalypse of Peter, which almost made it into our Bible (instead of the Apocalypse of John) is full of it. If the Governing Body continues to hold to the Adventist position, they'll have to ignore reams of evidence to the contrary. Man does not sleep at death. Only his body sleeps.

33

Evolution is just a theory

by donny in

for those who have heard this comment, check out aron ra's great site.. http://www.aronra.com/.

Cold Steel

Cold steel- you, mate, are stuck on thinking everything that tries to gain converts is a cult...mormons even say that christianity was and is a cult right?

Of course early Christianity was a cult, just as early Mormonism was a cult. Pliny used the word "cult" to describe Christians as did most of the Roman Empire. A cult is a religion that is based on another religion and adds to it. Often it centers around one leader and followers who believe in that leader. Jesus fits such a leader as does Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White. In the first century, there was a vicious strain of Judaism called the Zealots, which caused many innocent Jews to be crucified. Then there were the Essenes, gnostic Christians and so forth.

[But] imagine if people could hold their ideas, and i stress IDEAS, without being told they are wrong...and if the are wrong, having concrete proof to show it but without discrimination. Or better yet, imagine a place where things are NOT viewed in religous biases or preconceived notions....for me, call it atheism, but it is the natural world that is testable and observable that i find fascinating. Hide behind your walls of religion while pretending to accept all people but for le agnostics and atheists are the most open minded individuals ive met....

I don't see myself as hiding behind religion. I'm content to abiden in a revelation we believe was given to Joseph Smith: "Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven." I agree it would be nice if people could hold their beliefs without being attacked, but this world is quite a ways from being that.

[It's] easy to say that your religion doesnt negate evolution...but ask yourself mate, and really read each line and verse of your bible....Does science and the universe and evolution negate Religion or GOD....trust me there are MANY holes!

Well, I second that there are holes. And Mormons don't believe the Bible is either complete or inerrent (and we get heat about that from other Christians). There are numerous errors in the Bible: historical problems, prophetic problems, contradictions, scientific problems and superstition. Even Paul states many things that are simply his own opinions. So yes, there are holes. Anything produced by and conveyed by man is bound to have faults.

33

Evolution is just a theory

by donny in

for those who have heard this comment, check out aron ra's great site.. http://www.aronra.com/.

Cold Steel

Put it this way cold steel.... if you think that photo is literal.... it isn't..... it is neither science or fact. It is a bing search result! That picture is not what any scientist from Darwin on has EVER said, funny how christians believe it and have seen that phoyo everywhere. Why are you so lazy about checking facts? Do you not want to know the answers? I don't comprehend someone who goesno further than typing into a search engine and assuming that is enough....

It's just not something I'm interested in. If you say the picture isn't representative of evolution, I have no reason not to believe you. And I confess I'm ignorant on the subject, which is why I don't really have an opinion on it. But getting back to the picture, I've seen it for years in various forms. Many think that the first humans lived in caves and dropped out of trees. Some don't. I imagine it's a debated topic even among anthropologists. Having been told that picture is not representative of evolution, I won't use it again.

Thanks for the input!

33

Evolution is just a theory

by donny in

for those who have heard this comment, check out aron ra's great site.. http://www.aronra.com/.

Cold Steel

SnareAndRacket: What on earth do any of these things have to do with the TRUTH of whether there is a god or not?

Nothing. Just that the world seems to be just as well off with religionists as atheists. Like I said, atheism is as much of a religion...cult, if you will, as any others. They go the gamut from tolerant and well behaved to rude and evengelical. That's all I was getting at. I'm completely openminded to evolution and don't feel that it closes the door on faith.

33

Evolution is just a theory

by donny in

for those who have heard this comment, check out aron ra's great site.. http://www.aronra.com/.

Cold Steel

LisaRose: Cold Steel, you know nothing about evolution, or anything else for that matter. Evolution does not teach we descended from apes. If you can't get this one simple point then your opinion is useless, you are making a fool out of yourself.

I suspect you're engaging in a bit of hyperbole there. I don't know a lot about evolution, granted, because I've never cared enough to really study it. But as Boss Tweed said of Thomas Nast's cartoons, "People don't know how to read, but they do understand them damn pictures!"

By the way, this is from a Bing search on "Evolution." I reckon a lot of folks must be confused about it. That thing on the far left sure looks like an ape to me, but I'm open to correction.

45

Why did Jesus tell the convict on the cross next to his, that he would be joining him in Heaven TODAY??

by Faithful Witness in

maybe a silly question, but i'm curious about this part of the story of christ's crucifixion, when the 1 thief challenges jesus to save himself and "us too" from their deaths, but the 2nd thief rebukes him and pleads with jesus... .

luke 23:42-43: and he said unto jesus, lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.. .

Cold Steel

Laika: Yes it was. And are we about to have a JW v Mormon debate? Delightful!

I think you misunderstood my answer. I don't for a moment doubt that the malefactor will gain eternal life through the Atonement; my point is that people don't go to Heaven without first understanding the Gospel. Our earth probations don't always end at death. Jesus was saying to the malefactor, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." That doesn't mean the man was resurrected or went to be with God. Jesus went to Paradise, but he didn't go to Heaven. I suspect the second malefactor also received an opportunity to hear the Gospel as well. We don't know his past or what he would say if he also had an opportunity to hear it.